On the hard...

[Terry]

Dave,
When we all met at the Rendezvous I vaguely remember you saying something about blocking the boat without having support on the keel. Can you or anyone else expand on this.
I seem to remember having blocks under my keel the last two winters.
Any chance of a diagram or something to explain your theory or how to block?
We've done the "pump out cruise" and are just waiting around for lift out.
Zebra mussels... scrap 'em off now or wait until they've dried out in the spring?

[dpearson]

Terry

I'll see if I can get a diagram up on the site. To describe it in text goes something like this. The alcan/alwest/etc. boats were not made following traditional boat construction. Most steel boats and wood boats were traditionally made with a main longitudinal keel and then the shape is built up with lateral formers at regular intervals along the length of the keel. The Alcan/Alwest boats are made with longitudinal stringers only. The keel that runs about 2/3 the length of the boat is welded to the outside of the skin. So it has basicially no strength side to side and should never be used to support the boat's weight while on the hard. When we bought Buster she had a huge bend in the keel from this very situation. I had the piece cut out and a new section of aluminum welded in when I had the boat repainted a few years ago. It wasn't cheap.

How to support your Alcan/Alwest boat on dry land?
The best way to support the boat is with stands placed along the chines. The boat is strongest at the transom, the firewall, and the divide between the basement and the forward hold. I would recommend three stands along each chine, one at each of these locations. In addition, a center stand may be added at the transom and another along the keel line, but well forward of where the keel plate ends. The forward center stand should be just before the keel line starts curving upward. If you do all that, you will have eight stands under the boat. A bit overkill in my opinion, but if you are on soft ground you might want the load distributed at bit.

FYI, every boat will be a bit different, but Buster balances at a point about 12 feet forward of the transom. A point which is ahead of the firewall. So. in terms of redundancy, the stands at the firewall and transom can fill in for each other, but a failure in one of the forward stands could result in the boat falling over. The forward center stand can act as a redundant stand in the event of a failure in one of the foward chine stands.

[Rob]

An intriguing discussion . . . .
I have always set Catherine Ann on 3 crosswise sets of blocks, at the chines and at the keel.
The first set at the transom, the second set 10 ft forward of that and the 3rd set another 10 ft forward.
I place a single keel block another 10 ft forward.
I try to carry the weight equally across each set. Touching the boat to the keel blocks and then shimming the chine blocks to touch, before lowering the weight of the boat.
Having said this, Catherine Ann has a very twisted keel from previous blocking. When we purchased her, she was sitting on 3 blocks ! Two at the transom chines and one forward (under the biggest bow in the keel . . .surprise . . .surprise)
I have tried bending this back and it is not going to go, without seriously risking damage to the keel hull connection.
I have considered cutting out the bent sections and welding in new . . . . David, we need to talk more about this.
If you look at the structure of the boat, the four longitudinal stringers are also significant structure.
Does anybody have a cradle that picks these up as well ? (Cadoruca has something like this)
If the cradle was designed to cross at the bulkheads described by David, this would be ideal.
Once David gets tech section updates going again I will upload pictures and measurements on my blocking plan.
I think I might just have to design and build myself a cradle . . . . .

[Terry]

Check out the post from WaterCottage on Oct 11th in the Alcans for sale forum. (37 Foot Hull for Sale)
The pics of the stripped down hull show those longitudinal stringers. My keel looks fine but I guess I've been getting away with murder.
I'll take these photos and anything else you guys can give me up to my marina to show the boys before they lift me out. Hurry if you can 'cause I'm just waiting on the call to go up and help them.
Any idea on where to get those boat stands? Any idea of the cost?

[GOVAN]

SIOUX has for the past 20 years been stored on blocks and or stands. For the past ten years we have used 3 steel stands under the keel. The weight of the boat is set down on the stands. Then, adjustable stands are placed at the transom and just aft of the start of the spray rail.
In view of the other comments we will have to rethink this method.

Brian - SIOUX

[Rob]

You know . . . . I think there is a difference between blocking an Alwest hull and blocking any other Alcan/Alloy/other Montreal built derivative.
There is a nearly derelict Alcan 29 in the yard in Whitby and I took a quick look on my way home tonight. It has been siting there for several years on 4 blocks with no sign of damage. Two blocks at the transom/chine corners and two under the keel. I think we Alwest owners have a more fragile keel design to work around. Has anyone ever seen keel damage from blocking on anything other than an Alwest ?

Rob

[Terry]

What he said, but.... hurry up!
They are going to call me any day.

[Rob]

Terry,
Send me your email address and I will send you what I have about how I block up Catherine Ann.
This is in a Powerpoint format, so I can't attach it here.
Eventually it will be posted to the tech section of the website.
Rob
rob.farrow@sympatico.ca

[dpearson]

Folks

Take a look at this picture:

Bulkhead design

It is from the one of the drawings in the blueprints section:
http://www.alcanboats.com/BluePrints/Bu ... ent%20.JPG

It doesn't show the keel, but it does show that the keel has nothing other than the thin hull skin to support it. There is lateral support for the longitudinal stringers only.

So... I have had a bent keel. My Dad has had a bent keel. According to his post, Rob has had a bent keel. All from supporting weight on the keel.

Unless there is some compelling reason to put blocks under the keel, don't do it. Add more blocks at the chines. If you need support down the center line, use supports at the transom and well ahead of the keel.

David

[GOVAN]

I have been trying to attach a picture of SIOUX on stands for Winter storage. I now have the formula for doing so thanks to Terry.

Brian - SIOUX

[limitless]

We custom measured and built these stands. Aluminum is actually very strong. it deflects and punctures easily. understanding the frame structure is key to stand placement. It is not very clear however Limitless sole keel support was designed to take her full load on the vertical surfaces of the keel. the length of the keel then transfers the load longitudinally to the bow and forward bulkhead. The safest way to support most vessels is at three points. Should there be any ground movement, the load stays even over the three points. When multiple stands are used there may be some settlement in one or more points causing additional load being transfered to areas that may be stressed. We designed multiple stand to enable us to temporarily support at strategic locations to enable us to refinish all areas of her bottom. During winter layup we position all the stands, however only the key transom stands and the sole keel stand take the load. all the other stands are left soft as standbys, We check the supports at least 4 times a season. We have had good success to date. Limitless has spent most of her life with us on the hard. We plan to change that in upcoming seasons.

At some point in a previous life, Limitless was either supported incorrectly or the ground softened and she shifted causing a roll in the keel. We cut open the keel, pried and pounded her back true. Welded some reinforcing back into the leading edge.

[Robert Stork]

I am glad to read this post.
Our 290 has been blocked poorly throughout its life and has dented the keel. There is nothing except thin skin and foam.
I have encourage all blocking and support to take weight at the sides and transom. The marinas are useless, and they keep doing it the same way (the 3 point method: one under front of keel and two at rear side transom), usually too late by the time i show up and then i have to tell them to provide for side support.

Advice, always be there a blocking time, when the boat gets pulled.
how to undent this keel is the question.
robert

[WaterCottage]

I was never impressed with the flimsy keel on my 30'. The boat has spent most of it's life in the water and hasn't been blocked up, except for haulouts.

The keel should have been a full length "V" of aluminum around 6-7" high, 4-5" at the top and tapering down so it could support the weight better.
The current keel is bent a bit and the only way I could see to straighten it and pull down slightly is some type of hydraulic set-up with a puller. Of course this isn't going to be happening soon, so I'll live with it.

As long as there are multiple chine supports, weight is less on the keel.

This shot is when I first got the boat...

Jay