Alcanboats Forum

So . . . . with the boats tucked safely away (for those of us in the east) and the snow beginning to swirl about, it is time to plan that new aquisition for the boat next summer, or that bigger than normal repair/replacement job that you really would like to get behind you . . . . . Whatever it is, likely someone on this forum has done it already, or has some insight worth considering before you tackle the project. Just start a new post in this new "Technical Section" with a title that fits your question or plan and let's see where it takes us.

Plans for Catherine Ann this winter include refurbishing some of the exterior wood trim (I seem to have accumulated rather a lot of this over the last decade or so ) and a rebuild/renovation of the lower forward berth.

Rob We are thinking of doing our lower berth but wonder what we can do about headroom? I was wondering what is under us in the square areas under the matress our setup was originally two twins and now one double the headromm is a little low. Ideas?

Hi Wayne,
See new tech topic . . . "Alwest Lower Forward Berth"
Rob

New Teleflex steering pumps and lines. I have the pumps and am scanning Ebay for some lines. The old ones were 3/16" ID and the new stuff calls for 5/16". Copper refrigeration pipe can also be used apparently.

Jay

Hi Watercottage (Is this Jay?),

I installed Teleflex Sea Star hydraulic steering a couple of years ago. The original Alwest system was cable and drums so going hydraulic was a huge improvement !

The tubing run length (in a 370) is right at the recommended limit for the nylon tubing so I went with copper. Regular plumbing copper would likely work IF you could get it into place. The major advantage of the thicker wall softer copper refrigeration tubing is that it can be bent back and forth (a few times) as you snake it from pump to cylinder. I did discover that all the Teleflex installation parts are ridiculously more expensive than exactly equivalent pieces from other sources. I will assemble all that I learned in a new tech article.

You mention steering pumps (ie more than one) . . . .Do you have a flybridge ?

More info to follow . . . . . .

Rob

No Flybridge. The second one is for an outside helm (port side, beside engine cover) that was added years ago. Very nice for docking and just being outside when whether is nice. I can see through the back window of the wheelhouse through the windshield, so it can be used for regular driving, if desired, which I do for short distances sometimes.

Jay

I have 3 major projects in mind for Buster.

1) Swim platform.
I am thinking that this is the year to add a swim platform with a nice big dive ladder. I have designed the platform and ladder in my mind and have created sketches. Now I need to do the math and do more precise drawings. My big challenge is that I would like the ladder to be strong and deep for climbing while wearing SCUBA gear, but I also want it to be attractive while not deployed. This is NOT common to dive ladders.

2) Larger roof for the pilot-house.
We have been thinking how nice it would be to have a covered walkway and front deck on Buster. I am toying with the idea of replacing the pilot-house roof with one that is larger. I would like to cover the side walkways, the front deck and also the windows in the back of the pilot-house. This would make the boat much nicer in the rain and in the hot sun.

3) Re-skinning the superstructure.
Not unlike the job on Catherine Ann, except I would do it all in Aluminum. I am relatively certain that there is nothing good to find under the superstructure skin. I am thinking of ripping it all off and building a welded aluminum replacement. Not a trivial task, but I have some ideas. Having seen Catherine Ann, it is hard to argue with Rob's selection of materials, but I think I can lighten Buster a little bit by using aluminum. I really need to think about this one, because it could be an expensive mistake if I am wrong.

Cheers
David

WOW David! . . . . you plan BIG! and BIGGER !!

The Swim Platform & Dive Ladder would be easy to tackle. I am firmly convince that the "geometry and positioning" of the swimgrid on Catherine Ann is ideal. I am rethinking the materials. I have just refinished the swimgrid (shown in the tech article) for the second time. Varnished Ash/Oak/Mahogany are just not up to the task in this wet area. I am thinking that a stainless steel or aluminum frame with unfinished teak strips would be ideal. (This is not unlike the swimgrid construction on Cadoruca)

The expanded pilothouse roof is a great idea . . . . . if this could be made to look right, this would be a very attractive thing to do. I have always admired the trawlers like this that can leave their windows and doors open in any weather. (See new tech forum topic on this idea)

Completely replacing the superstructure would be a huge (but intriguing) project. We have talked about this before. This would essentially eliminate the "achilles heel" of the Alwest construction methods. This would mean also having to replace the interior walls because they are attached to the inside of this same wooden structure. I think you would end up pretty much gutting the boat and starting fresh. . . . If one could acquire an empty Alwest hull . . . one could begin this journey at the right place. Just imagine a properly insulated and heated boat that would be comfortable from early Spring to late Fall Eventually you could transfer over all the pieces that you want to keep and ultimately again have an empty Alwest hull to sell to the next adventuresome soul. The size of a project like this is daunting . . . . but people build whole boats all the time. Case Vandenbelt would be a good resource to talk to. He has already done this very thing . . .. more than once.

BTW . . . I am confident that Klacko Marine can fabricate anything that you can think up . . . from a swimgrid to a new roof frame or entire superstructure

Rob

The dive ladder and roof are fairly easy projects and rely more on ey for design that anything else. The re-skinning is a little more complicated.

I am actually thinking of keeping the original superstructure intact as much as possible, including the interior paneling. What I would like to do is replace the outer skin with a welded aluminum version with as little as possible change in position. This would allow me to re-use the windows and everything elese without major re-build of the structure. I am thinking of angle-section aluminum attached to the wood frames and sheeting welded to the aluminum to make it happen. I hope it is lighter, stonger and higher integrity that the aluminum over ply original skin.

David

Re: Aluminum Skin for an Alwest Superstructure . . . . .

I can see how this method could work.
Fastening aluminum angle to the sides of the superstructure frames, positioned to carry the new skin at exactly the original wall thickness would make re-installation of the original windows (and door) quite easy.

Fastening the new skin to this new support structure would take a little thought.
One idea would be drill holes through the skin where it contacts the frame. Pressing the skin tightly to the frame and welding the hole closed, would create a solid attachment. This could then be ground flush on the ouside to create a seamless exterior without visible fastenings to the underneath structure.

I had been thinking of using screws, but I like the idea of drilling holes in the skin and then filling them with weld material. It is a little more obvious when joining two pieces of sheet together. I am thinking of making sure all the sheets join at an angle piece. That way I can leave a small gap between the sheets of metal and fill the gap with weld material. This would join the pieces together and attach the whole thing to the angle. My biggest concern is how to do this without setting the boat on fire.

Re: Aluminum Skin for an Alwest Superstructure . . . . .

Not setting the whole works on fire is an important consideration !
I would not be too worried about the heat generated by small plug welds.
Continuous seam welds would be another matter.
Epoxy fillers bond very well to properly prepared aluminum.
You might want to think about skin seams plug welded (to minimize heat) to a support angle
and the seam faired with epoxy filler.

My other thought was to join the sheets together before installing them on the boat. Then just use the plug weld everywhere. This could work everywhere except the corners.

What thickness were you thinking of for the skin ?
The side panels in particular are going to be big floppy pieces of aluminum to handle in one piece, but it could likely be done with many hands to bring them into position. The holes drilled for the plug welds would really help with assembly because you could see that the skin was tight to the structure before each weld.

I haven't determined what thickness to use yet. I recall Case saying something about 1/8" for Cadoruca, so that will probably be my starting point for calculations. I just took a look at the brochure for the Alcan 370 and it indicates that the "side sheets" (I assume that means the superstructure) were 9/64" thick, so 1/8" will probably do. I hadn't thought too much about handling the sheets. My research says that 1/8" aluminum is about 1.8lb per sq. ft. My rough math puts the sides at about 130 sq. ft. for a weight of 234lb. So... three or four people should be able to handle it.

So... some additional math

Two sides at ~130 sq. ft. each
The front ~54
The back ~36
~340 sq. ft. of aluminum weighs just over 600lb, Plywood is around 1 to 2lb per sq. ft. depending on the type. so the weight should be similar to the original.

I just priced out aluminum sheet on an online web-site and it would be around $3,000 to $4,000 depending on the alloy, which leads to the question of which alloy to use. Interesting that you can buy aluminum sheet up to 6' x 12' in size. I am used to seeing 4' x 8' sheets of stuff. I guess people build big things out of aluminum.

David

Anything less than 1/8" would be really difficult to handle without distortion. If the sheet got stretched during handling, it would be tough to get it to lay flat. A very floppy 234 lb sheet of aluminum sounds like a lot to handle for even 3 or 4 people. This sheet could be temporarily "reinforced" with pieces of wood duct taped to the outside surface to prevent accidental distortion until it reaches its final position.

In the overall weight comparison, you also have to add the weight of the angles to be fastened to the existing wooden frame. Additional framework around the windows might also be required to support the wall compression that retains the windows. With reference to what is there today, the current walls likely weigh considerably more than dry plywood because of the water that they have absorbed.

Regarding alloy, I would pay particular attention to the welding characteristics, since this will be most important. Some of the more expensive alloys cost more because of sophisticated heat treating. This tempering will be negated by the welding anyway, so no real point in paying for it in the first place.

BTW, is there a way to gather and move this "superstructure dialogue" to its own tech section title ?
We have kind of buried this under the "what projects" section but I think any Alwest owner should be interested in this discussion. A unique title might attract input from others. This is probably THE MOST IMPORTANT thing for any Alwest owner to solve, in preserving the value of their boat.

Rob

I have been following this and even though I have not anything to add find it very interesting.
Want to know how it turns out

Dingy behind, I'm thinking 'NO' , theft, locking, bouncing around while planing ,no access to swim platform & ladder !
A cradle extended from the upper hand-rails ,will support the dingy and solar water panels , over the enlarged rear deck.
The centre down-stairs roof support [back scratching] pole has been installed to be the bottom mast support,
fabricate an upper mast head,C/W -circular stand up wet bar, and extend hand-rails to support an ,
Over Head Cantilevered Davit Arm, extendable to 9Ft., with capacity of 1100Lbs/5Kgs ,similar to pic #1
ours will mount in the centre /middle of the upper deck, with 180 Deg. swing rotation, without restriction.
many different lifting devices here ;

http://www.nauticexpo.com/boat-manufact ... 22753.html

- what are the pro's and cons ?
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I want to lengthen/enlarge the rear deck 30"for extra room & motorcycle parking, similar to pic #2
extend hand rails upward,cradling the 7Ft. dingy length ways, upside down, pointing forward,
with 3Ft.X 6Ft. solar-water-panels mounted on either side, making a roof. [ maybe it will look like a planes tail ? ]
suspend a swim-platform below it , C/W - trim tabs and, small transom, out board mount

- again what are the pro's and cons ?
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pic # 3 -
I intend to complete these plans , 2014-2015 and build/ install 2016-2017

April 2016

rear deck platforms are coming together !

will it clear the wake wave ?????????????????

the back roof and crane will have to wait till next year

finished product,all most

the black swim plateform, gets some back wash when running fast,

so we will lift it up 3 inches